{Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

[Icemage]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

Enfeebling Magic skill is extremely potent in XP parties. I merited Enfeebling as a WHM, and I was able to tear through even IT++ enemies with my enfeebles as a result of that plus my Enfeebling Torque.

There's a very visible difference in enfeebling accuracy with and without Enfeebling Torque pre-75. Even with merits, I still miss enfeebles once in a while at level 74 with 7 levels of merits (+14 skill), plus an Enfeebling Torque and AF armor. If I forget to swap in the Torque (sometimes happens right after Convert) my accuracy suffers noticeably.


Icemage

[Aeni]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

Enfeebling Magic skill is extremely potent in XP parties. I merited Enfeebling as a WHM, and I was able to tear through even IT++ enemies with my enfeebles as a result of that plus my Enfeebling Torque.

There's a very visible difference in enfeebling accuracy with and without Enfeebling Torque pre-75. Even with merits, I still miss enfeebles once in a while at level 74 with 7 levels of merits (+14 skill), plus an Enfeebling Torque and AF armor. If I forget to swap in the Torque (sometimes happens right after Convert) my accuracy suffers noticeably.


Icemage

Don't forget, though, the elemental day will affect your spells, depending on which ones you're using. Don't completely blame it on your equipment, skill level and what have you. What was that saying about there's gonna be good days and bad? SE developers seem to enjoy sprinkling the semantics of real life wherever they can in this game...

[Hamlet]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

From my experience the resist rate at those levels is more dependant on how much can you boost your INT/MND than it is about skill. So equip macros and elemental staves should be all you need, I'd take +5 MND from Promise and +3 INT from Philomath stole over enf. torque any day.

That's the opposite of "common red mage knowledge", but I'd be really interested if it was true. According to common knowledge, you should get 2.5 enfeebling skill from the badge and 1.5 bonus from the stole. Certainly not better than the spider torque and especially not the enfeebling torque.

But, it's the damndest thing, the one time I was fighting mobs that were actually IT to 75, in Ullegard Range, I was having some trouble with resists on my debuffs. So, just for fun, I tried out debuffing with the errant body on (with big boosts to int and mnd, but no enfeebling +), and I SWEAR my enfeebs were landing more often. Granted, it was one party, and a limited test, but I found it really surprising.

But, assuming common knowledge is correct, I'd say that the enfeebling torque is nice, but not necessary. I got one, but it was before inflation. It was still expensive, and still probably cost the same if you convert pre inflation gil with post inflation gil. You're still going to get some resists on regular xp mobs no matter what, so anything to cut that down is a bonus. I don't think you should farm your ass for weeks for the difference between spider and enfeebling, but if you have the gil, it's not a bad place to spend it. It also shows that you really care about your job. I'm not saying you should care what other people think, but since enfeebling is the major single thing rdms should gear up for, it just makes sense.

Of course, if common knowledge is wrong, then you're better off with a promise badge lol.

[Mhurron]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

+2 skill isn't worth 3 million gil unless you are doing gods or stuff like that, heck even the +5 from spider is barely worth it at that lvl.

RDM enf. skill is really high, so +7 skill at lvl 65 is 3% increase or so (and the benefit decreases as you level up), which really means nothing unless you are fighting mobs way higher than a normal xp mob (not to mention you already have +15 skill from your AF body at that lvl).

From my experience the resist rate at those levels is more dependant on how much can you boost your INT/MND than it is about skill.

Take off your Tabard and have no other +skill, replace it with a tonne of MND or INT and you'll have a hell of a time landing an enfeeble on an EXP mob. Even the +5 from the Spider Torque or +7 Enfeebling Torque is like getting another level of skill without waiting to actually level. It can make the difference of Enfeebling an IT as an IT or fighting an IT and getting exp from an IT while only enfeebling it like it was a VT. The Promise Badge won't do that.

INT and MND is more a relation of how potent the enfeeble is. Having a lot of MND probably makes your Paralyze kick in a lot when it lands, but who cares when most of the time its resisted.

I don't see the Enfeebling Torque worth the several millions over the Spider that it is, but you should have one of them. I couldn't really afford either, so I camped the Dune Widow. 1/11 and it was really under camped. Hell after 11 times killing it and getting the guarenteed 3 Spider Webs that drop, I had enough to go buy the thing, I just didn't have to.

Depends on the race. As a mithra, I used wands exclusively up until level 62, when my lack of MND became less of an issue and where staves benefits started to shine more. I guess there's an equilibrium or a "breaking point" if you will with many jobs/races

Goblin Mushpot will give more MND then any wand will and you'll get the 10% to that element benefit of the Elemental Staves.

[Raydeus]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

That's the opposite of "common red mage knowledge", but I'd be really interested if it was true. According to common knowledge, you should get 2.5 enfeebling skill from the badge and 1.5 bonus from the stole. Certainly not better than the spider torque and especially not the enfeebling torque.

Maybe, but the question here is: What do you really need?

+2-3% in enf. skill (which is very high already) or a +8-10% on your MND stat.

I'm not saying +skill isn't helpful, what I'm saying is resists are not only based on skill but also in your stats compared to the mob's stats. So +5MND/3INT will always help more than +5-7 skill for me.

Take off your Tabard and have no other +skill, replace it with a tonne of MND or INT and you'll have a hell of a time landing an enfeeble on an EXP mob. Even the +5 from the Spider Torque or +7 Enfeebling Torque is like getting another level of skill without waiting to actually level. It can make the difference of Enfeebling an IT as an IT or fighting an IT and getting exp from an IT while only enfeebling it like it was a VT. The Promise Badge won't do that.

I've tested it on xp parties way too many times, there was a time when I tried using Spider torque but it didn't make any difference so I kept MND/INT gear instead.

What I did back in those days (at least a year or more ago) was test my enfs with MND/INT gear on, and then without it replacing it with +skill (tabard and spider), then try with staves, etc. etc.

Enfs always sticked better with a higher MND/INT and staves, and the +5 skill from ST didn't make any noticeable difference.

In the end the MND/INT + Staves + Tabard combo is what worked the best, which is why I've been using that since. I never get resisted, (except for a few cases in Dynamis Xarcabard) and I never got resisted at lvl 60 using that combo, after getting the staves I never needed ES to stick a Sleep on a IT unless it was way beyond the lvl of things you'd xp on (IT++++++++).



So at least in my experience MND/INT have a greater impact than the +skill from torques, but every RDM has to try things by themselves and find the combo they feel more comfortable with. All we can really do is give the OP options so he can choose what works best for him.

[Icemage]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

Maybe, but the question here is: What do you really need?

+2-3% in enf. skill (which is very high already) or a +8-10% on your MND stat.

I'm not saying +skill isn't helpful, what I'm saying is resists are not only based on skill but also in your stats compared to the mob's stats. So +5MND/3INT will always help more than +5-7 skill for me.

Eh.. +stats are important, up to a point. You can't just overload on Enfeebling Magic and neglect INT/MND entirely, but...

Against XP-worthy enemies, it's impossible prior to level 75 to hit diminishing returns on +Enfeebling Magic.

Against those same enemies, adding more than about 20 points of INT/MND does little to nothing for your stick rate, even if potency increases.

I've tested it on xp parties way too many times, there was a time when I tried using Spider torque but it didn't make any difference so I kept MND/INT gear instead.

What I did back in those days (at least a year or more ago) was test my enfs with MND/INT gear on, and then without it replacing it with +skill (tabard and spider), then try with staves, etc. etc.

Enfs always sticked better with a higher MND/INT and staves, and the +5 skill from ST didn't make any noticeable difference.

In the end the MND/INT + Staves + Tabard combo is what worked the best, which is why I've been using that since. I never get resisted, (except for a few cases in Dynamis Xarcabard) and I never got resisted at lvl 60 using that combo, after getting the staves I never needed ES to stick a Sleep on a IT unless it was way beyond the lvl of things you'd xp on (IT++++++++).

So at least in my experience MND/INT have a greater impact than the +skill from torques, but every RDM has to try things by themselves and find the combo they feel more comfortable with. All we can really do is give the OP options so he can choose what works best for him.

Depends on what you're doing. I was able to XP in Bhaflau Thickets at level 63 on RDM and still got a reasonable stick rate on Paralyze, considering the enemies were 15+ levels above me. With AF Tabard + Enfeebling Torque + 12 (at the time) merits, I was getting about a 50-60% stick rate. Without the Tabard and Torque, my stick rate on Paralyze was way lower, maybe closer to 20%.

Even now, at level 74, XPing in Bhaflau, I get the odd resist or two from Mamool Ja (Lv80+) if I forget to equip my Torque and just use a staff and AF. With the Torque, stick rate is close to 100%.


Icemage

[Aeni]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

Goblin Mushpot will give more MND then any wand will and you'll get the 10% to that element benefit of the Elemental Staves.

I think someone recommended that at one time, but my resist rates with it wasn't any better. Plus, the other foods I use give better mp/tick while resting and/or boost to max MP, like snoll gelato, for instance.

(Need to explain that I mean having that much more MND than from a wand didn't do much more ... but just having the wand on hand instead worked wonders for me at that time in my 50s ...)

[Hamlet]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

The thing that's really bugged me, and will continue to until someone tells me SE said something specifically, is the relationship of int and mnd to enfeebling skill, and what enfeebling skill does exactly.

It's rather clear that elemental skill affects the accuracy of nukes. It's very clear that 2dex = 1 accuracy, because SE said so that one time, and 2str=1 attack, because you can look at your attack.

But I think the relationship of 2int=1 enfeebling on an "int based" debuff, like gravity, has never been stated blatently by SE to be true, and I don't think that SE's ever said that enfeebling skill has the exact same relationship to debuffs as elemental has with nukes.

[Raydeus]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

The thing that's really bugged me, and will continue to until someone tells me SE said something specifically, is the relationship of int and mnd to enfeebling skill, and what enfeebling skill does exactly.

It's rather clear that elemental skill affects the accuracy of nukes. It's very clear that 2dex = 1 accuracy, because SE said so that one time, and 2str=1 attack, because you can look at your attack.

But I think the relationship of 2int=1 enfeebling on an "int based" debuff, like gravity, has never been stated blatently by SE to be true, and I don't think that SE's ever said that enfeebling skill has the exact same relationship to debuffs as elemental has with nukes.

Even if stats didn't give you spell acc (which I doubt) having a higher MND/INT stat compared to your oponent plays a big role on sticking a debuff and the effect is gonna have (potency and time). I guess is pretty much the same way your STR is measured against the mob's VIT when you hit em to determine how much dmg you are gonna do.

In my experience casting a debuff with +10 INT/MND and casting the same debuff with +40 something is the difference between having just decent stick rate and having a 99.5% stick rate.

So I dunno, you gotta go with what makes you feel more comfortable with your debuffing regardless of what other people say.

[Icemage]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

Read my post above. +INT/MND stops helping you stick enfeebles after your stats rise above that of the target. More specifically, I have great difficulty sticking Paralyze on anything above Tough as a WHM75 with 7 levels of Enfeebling Merits unless I tack on a bunch more +Enfeebling skill.

I tested it one day against Behemoth. I stacked on +58 MND, and still couldn't land Paralyze reliably against it, while my RDM LS mate stripped down almost to nothing and was able to land Paralyze almost at will.

Another good example: I usually go as WHM/BLM into Dynamis, and when I first started (I'm Tarutaru), with only an elemental staff and AF1 body for WHM (+10 Enfeebling), I could barely land Sleep/Sleepga at all without using Elemental Seal, and even then sometimes it would fail even stacking +20 or more INT. Might have gotten a 20% stick rate on a good day.

Now, with AF1 body, Enfeebling Torque, Elite Beret, AF2 gloves and an Anrin Obi, but only a fistful of +INT, my stick rate is closer to 90%, despite way lower INT.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

Read my post above.

I did, but aparently you didn't read my posts so I'll have to quote myself.

Now, if you fight gods and mobs that are a much higher lvl compared to your current skill (around 10 lvls) that's when you should focus on +skill. Those are the fights where having +7 from the torque, +15 from AFv2 Chapeau and another +15 from AF body is really sweet.

Now, I still don't know why are you comparing WHM's enf skill (C rating, 225 cap @75) with RDM's (A+ rating, 276 @75).

In other words, WHM has at lvl 75 the skill a RDM would have at lvl 65, if you want to compare WHM's skill with a RDM's then a T mob would be at least 14 levels higher than you (skillwise) so in reality you aren't trying to enf a T mob but an IT+++++++ compared to your skill as a WHM.

With that much lack of skill of course +skill items will help a WHM more than any +MND ever will.

However since RDM has a different skill rating +5 or even +7 skill really isn't much, at lvl 65 is barely 3%, at lvl 75 is 2.5% increase, and RDM has lower MND than WHM so +MND would help a RDM more than +skill.

But like I said, every RDM has to do their own tests and find out what works best for them, if you wanna go all +skill then do so.

[Bricklayer]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

Thanks to OP for opening this thread. As a 23RDM currently lvl'ing subs before the push to 75, this guide is priceless. I took about a 1-2 year hiatus from FF and just came back recently, and I had totally forgotten about equip macros (though they are probably less critical at my level). Nevertheless, at lower levels, I decided to throw in melee and TP. Now that I've started hanging back to cast enf's and backup heal, I think I need to revisit my macros, and start looking more carefully at my gear too.

Thanks to Raydeus and Icemage especially for their sagely advice. I learned more here in 20 minutes of reading than I have anywhere else.

-Bricklayer

P.S. Aeni, 猫カツ丼?! How about 犬カツ丼? My fav is still カリオムレツ ^^

[Icemage]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

I
Now, I still don't know why are you comparing WHM's enf skill (C rating, 225 cap @75) with RDM's (A+ rating, 276 @75).

In other words, WHM has at lvl 75 the skill a RDM would have at lvl 65, if you want to compare WHM's skill with a RDM's then a T mob would be at least 14 levels higher than you (skillwise) so in reality you aren't trying to enf a T mob but an IT+++++++ compared to your skill as a WHM.

With that much lack of skill of course +skill items will help a WHM more than any +MND ever will.

I was pointing out that stacking huge +MND hits diminishing returns much earlier than stacking +Enfeebling. I'm not saying +MND is bad, but it's pretty easy to get hold of +MND gear for RDM (Red Cape/+1, Pentitent's Rope, Devotee's Mitts/+1, Magic Cuisses/Errant/Mahatma, whatever else.). Once you pass about level 35, it's pretty easy to get +20 MND or better, which seems to be the point where diminishing returns kicks in against XP-worthy enemies.

However since RDM has a different skill rating +5 or even +7 skill really isn't much, at lvl 65 is barely 3%, at lvl 75 is 2.5% increase, and RDM has lower MND than WHM so +MND would help a RDM more than +skill.

But like I said, every RDM has to do their own tests and find out what works best for them, if you wanna go all +skill then do so.

The point being that you can still get close to or over the diminishing returns for +MND and still fit in the +Enfeebling gear; it's not really a one-or-the-other choice. Sure, there are going to be times when you won't need too much extra skill (level 75 party in Bhaflau with full merits and HQ staves, for instance), but aside from those casis, any time you're fighting IT or tougher enemies, I find +skill to be far more effective at landing spells than +MND, if for no other reason than it's so easy to add more MND.


Icemage

[Draco Dagon]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

Thanks to OP for opening this thread. As a 23RDM currently lvl'ing subs before the push to 75, this guide is priceless. I took about a 1-2 year hiatus from FF and just came back recently, and I had totally forgotten about equip macros (though they are probably less critical at my level). Nevertheless, at lower levels, I decided to throw in melee and TP. Now that I've started hanging back to cast enf's and backup heal, I think I need to revisit my macros, and start looking more carefully at my gear too.

Thanks to Raydeus and Icemage especially for their sagely advice. I learned more here in 20 minutes of reading than I have anywhere else.

-Bricklayer

Heh, I would like to thank myself too... :D

[Aeni]

Re: {Red Mage} {Hmmm.} {/think} {Can I have it?}

The point being that you can still get close to or over the diminishing returns for +MND and still fit in the +Enfeebling gear; it's not really a one-or-the-other choice. Sure, there are going to be times when you won't need too much extra skill (level 75 party in Bhaflau with full merits and HQ staves, for instance), but aside from those casis, any time you're fighting IT or tougher enemies, I find +skill to be far more effective at landing spells than +MND, if for no other reason than it's so easy to add more MND.


Icemage

What I don't clearly understand is the relationship of our skills and stats with respect to the monsters we're fighting. It is a general knowledge among veteran players that monsters are tiered out. For example, what you will need to fight in order to get x amount of exp at one level range will generally not be the same at another level range. More specifically, the higher the level the characters are, the more difficult the monsters need to be fought in order to gain the same amount of exp.

This scaling is not linear by all means. It is very dramatic. An example of this is fighting clippers as a level 35 WHM on Qufim. You can see the amount of damage you deal and then take against this basic of all monsters. Then you fight Robber Crabs as a level 74 WHM. There's a really big difference in the length of time it takes to complete a battle, let alone the sheer difficulty of your skills making an impact against the monster itself.

This leads me to believe that what benefit +20 MND gave to you at level 30 is not comparable to what you're getting out of it at level 70. Hence, I believe that you not only need to increase the skill of your abilities, but also increase the base stats proportionately.

Hence I'm a firm believer that if you are going to raise x amount of enfeebling skill, your MND bonuses better scale up to par, or you're not going to see much of an impact at all, if any.